Category: Writers Block
Many people have asked me why I don't like Americans, why I'm always putting the country down etc. and it's come up on The Boards here, so I figured it was time for me to explain myself. In this essay, written in March of 2008, and slightly updated since then, I think I really explained it as best as I could. Now that doesn't mean that I think *all* Americans are like this. In fact, I have a good number of friends who are totally the opposite. But this is definitely a decent amount of them, especially in the political arena. Btw, I don't truly hate cartoons. there are even a few that I like and believe it or not, some originated in America. But this is where it all started.
Don't Call Me An American
"You're unAmerican". The phrase would upset almost anyone. That is, if they were proud to be one. It would make them feel out of place, out of time and most of all, out of touch with their community. Yet, for me, it's a welcome phrase, a phrase that I wear like a badge of honour, or is that honor?
Imagine a child playing. What comes to mind? Do you think of a boy playing ball, of a girl playing with a doll or of any child playing with a video game? Now where do you see this child? In America, in Europe, in China, in Australia? Why is it that an African child with very little money wears a shirt with an American's team on it? Why is it that children in Greece listen to American-style music but barely know anything about traditional Greek songs? Why can't the girl play with the ball and the boy with the doll? Would that be wrong? Where did all these concepts and passtimes originate in modern times? When I was very young, I was in school. I forget the day, the grade or even the subject. All I remember is that I mentioned that I didn't like cartoons and an adult, probably a teacher, replied "that's so unAmerican". Instead of being offended, I rejoiced! I knew, as if the information were planted in my brain, that this is what I wanted to be, but why, I couldn't say just then. As I grew older, I became more and more disollusioned with the things they taught me in school. Everything was about America. But what about Europe and Asia and all the other peoples and continents? Why, now in high school, weren't they teaching me philosophy. All my life, I'd heard the name Plato, but never learned anything about him until college. Why was it that when I wanted to take a foreign language, the only two that were offered in my high school were Spanish and French? The Spanish wasn't even from Spain. It was from Latin America. And while we're at it, why is everything in Spanish anyway? Shouldn't English be the language of America? And if not, then why don't people from other countries receive the same treatment with regard to their language? All of these questions bothered me. And then, in 2001, I went to school one day. It was a day just like any other, until the world came crashing down. At first, it was like a fly with a voice that came blaring out of the pa system, so I paid no attention to it. Then, it grew more insistent, buzzing ever louder until even I was forced to listen to the words, planes hit New York. But in order to understand my seeming obliviousness, it's necessary to hear my story.
I didn't grow up in the era of the Western film craze, but I knew their basic plot. The good cowboys against the bad Indians. The god-fearing men against the pagans. And they expected me to cheer while they took land away from the natives and while they killed them. I read, both in high school and in college, how the white men purposefully infected the Native Americans with small pocks, how they forced them on the Trail of Tears onto reservations, where many stay to this day. Today, most Americans celebrate Thanksgiving, without knowing the real story behind it. How could I be proud of that? How could I stand up and say "I'm proud to be an American"? But that was in the past, you might say. Surely, America has learned from it's mistakes. Surely not. The one thing that September 11th brought home to me was the arrogance of the American people. They truly believe that they're superior. They believed that although they may go out and fight wars abroad, no one would dare harm the "good ole USA". They were wrong. And why was it harmed? For the same reason why those Africans where American sports team shirts. Americans have an inherent desire to spread their culture, their way of life, regardless of what others, including the new students of this culture, may think. But what, exactly, is American culture. Does it stretch back for thousands of years? Does it inspire great minds to build, to come up with new ideas, to push the boundaries of human endurance? Maybe, in it's early stages, it did some of these things. After all, it was America which created the radio, the telephone and the light bulb. But today, they create pollution with their automobiles and factories and they drain the environment of valuable resources. America is a large country, but not large enough to explain the huge amount of resources that Americans waste, all the time turning their back on renewable, safer and cleaner sources of energy, all for the sake of the almighty dollar. Their young plug themselves into the internet and shut themselves out from the rest of the world, while the ruling parties decide to fight needless wars and invade other people's territories, claiming they need to free them from one thing or another. In Vietnam, it was Communism and in Iraq, it was Sadam Husein. In Vietnam it was really helping the French and then not looking bad and in Iraq it's getting oil for their machines, revenge for a past war and money for their pockets. On the 11th of September, I was wracking my brain, trying to figure out answers to an English quiz. On the 12th, I was wracking my brain, trying to figure out the answers to life. It seemed that my philosophy class had come early. I was thrust from a world of Romanticism in the literary sense to one of confusion, but I knew why it had happened. It all goes back to culture and education. When I was in high school, aside from philosophy, I'd ask about grammar. The teachers would politely knod and smile and leave me to figure everything out with my dictionary. In college, I was constantly praised for being a straight A student, for having wonderful diction. And yet, I felt that it was nothing more than I should have had from a decent education. When most Europeans leave school, even a high school equivalent, they know several languages. When Americans leave, they're lucky if they know English, not counting Eubonics, which some actually call a language. But this cultural void extends far past the classroom and enters into the kitchen as well. When you think of American food, what comes to mind? Do you think of regional specialties, of Southern food, of New England Food or do you think of MacDonalds.? Let me put it another way. When you go to a foreign country (which many Americans never do) what do you see, a plate of hush puppies, some peach cobler or a big fat wapper? Odds are the wapper, maybe by a different name, with soda on the side. When you ask an American what Italian food is, do they tell you something authentic or do they say pizza? Should beer be drank hot or cold? But enough about that. If you consider yourself an American, how do you see yourself when you look in the mirror? Tell the truth. Someone said it, I'm sure. I'm fat, I'm ugly, I have pimples... I don't look like the model in the $1,000 dress on tv. Why? Who said that being fat, wearing plain clothes, or even having pimples, was a crime? America did, through their constant portrayal of "perfection" or at least, through their view of it on television. That's why people will kill one another, not for bread, but for a pair of brand-name sneakers and why others will starve themselves in order to be "beautiful" and "thin enough" to meet this ideal. America has made material possessions so valuable in people's minds that a regular pair of jeans isn't enough. They have to have someone's name on them. And it's not good enough to have a car, you've got to have the latest sports car. So what's an American to think when he/she walks into a simple place with simple people, especially if they follow a nonmainstream religion? Why, they must be changed of course, made American! The sad thing is that many might not even want this. While they may want freedom from serious opperession and torture of the innocent, they may not be ready or even able to accept a concept like democracy, especially when it's shoved upon them at once. Now do I support terrorism or would I hurt my American friends? Absolutely not. Do I think Americans need to wake up, step down from that pedistol and start being real people again, for themselves and for their country? Yes. I also think that if they don't at least try to fight against outsourcing, they'll lose more jobs and become poorer and, as we're already seeing, the quality of products will suffer dramatically, as the rest of the world again takes America's lead and moves their manufacturing to China etc.
But how do I fit into this you may ask? Do I consider myself an American? The answer is, legally yes, but spiritually no. Ever since that day with the cartoon, I knew that I didn't want to be part of it. I've never felt myself to be an American. I was born here, yes. I wouldn't harm America, unless it was against Greece, because I have no reason to do so. But I also wouldn't go out of my way to defend or protect it. If, for some reason, it was in the right, I'd argue for it, but mostly so I could prove my point. My mother came here an Italian immigrant and a child. She had nothing in her language, as the Hispanics do today. She had to learn English. But she became what an American should be, honest, loyal, freedom-loving and respectful towards others. She tried to pass her love of America onto me, but I would have none of it. While it's true that America does have women's rights, gay rights and other civil liberties, these are about the only really good things that they pass on when they needlessly get involved in other country's battles. and I see even these slowly getting stripped away. Think of your area. Can people smoke tobacco freely in it? Can people say the word nigger or fuck or whatever the new "bad word" is this week without being censored? If America is the country with freedom of speech, why is their so much sensorship? Since when did compassion turn into political correctness? Since when were Americans afraid to speak up? Is this what people think of when they hear the word democracy? .
My country, Hellas, or Greece if you prefer, may be at the bottom right now, and we may never be the proud and glorious nation that we once were, but at least I can wear the blue and white (the colours of our flag) with pride. We hurt ourselves and we have only each other to blame,. The world can't hate us for anything. The things that our ancients gave to humanity, from science, to drama, to literature, to culture, to democracy itself will last far longer than a Big Mac and a video game. So please, if you see me on the street, call me blind, foolish, obsessed, lazy, but don't call me an American.
A nationality is not a spiritual position, it is a legal definition and description of one's birth place and a tag that cannot be changed by spiritual associations.
You are an American, though obsessed with Greece. If you go there, blend in and get a residency or citizenship you can start calling yourself Greek, but fact is you have no idea what the country is like really and I find it demeaning to the country of your birth when you associate with a different country, at lest until you go there and make it more than just talk. Of course you see it differently, and I agree with many of your points. Mostly, the need to equate being Americans with being the greatest nation on earth. I am from Iceland, i love the land and nature, my family and friends are from there, but I am currently truly pissed at the government system that constantly pnishes blind people, or people on social security, who go abroad for education, stripping them of all their rights and make it so hard to fill in a slew of forms to retain your residential status, that it is impossible to do.
But it does not change who I am, and it is pat of my job in the world to try and fix what is wron with my society, or to become an active part of another society, not to put it down and pretend to be a German.
And your image of what foreigners think of America is, at least partly, suffering from the same problems and prejudice that you ascribe to Americans in general.
Italian food in Italy is actually similar to Italian food you get over here, slightly worse in fact. Same applies to French food, I met a woman who works for a large French bank but prefers to live in New York because she says it is much better and even the French food is better there.
And American restaurants in Europe are extremely popular and the quosine is more TexMex style than burgers.
So I think Americans often have a wrong image of their country's image abroad, mostly because they've never been there themselves.
The image of America, internationally, has degraded dramatically in the last couple of years, but America was truly what it aspired to be, a model and a leader in the last decades of the 20th century.
In Europe people often complain about how dirty language is beeped out and how it is utterly against the freedom of speech thing, and they would never do that. It turns out that in many cases the reason is that swearing and inappropriate language seems much more acceptable when it is not your own. Therefore people can say whatever they want in English, but the moment the phrases and slang are translated to the local language, the rules of what is permissible tend to be along the American lines and people take offense to it.
You have a lot of good points, but where I disagree with you is yyour claim that you can choose to be of whatever nation you wish, because you think they are cool, and ditch the country you belong to. It takes a much more active nature, moving there and try to become a a part of their society to give you the right to call yourself Greek or German or French.
I asked a history professor once why Americans have the need to see themselves as superior, and she said a lot of it has to do with America being a social experiment, people who moved from Europe to start a new society with new ideals, and if it turns out to be equal, or worse, than the cultures they moved from it would mean a big failure of the whole experiment that is America.
People in Europe do not learn anything of American history, so the tendency to teach one's own history and geography to the exclusion of others, is not an American phenominon.
And I think you will only see the truly good and bad things about your own nation and culture once you spend a considerable time abroad (not under a year). Then you will truly understand what you find precious and what you find annoying about your home land, it may not be what you think it would be at this point. Only time will tell, but it will be a much more realistic feeling of what makes you belong or not.
When I say spiritual, I don't mean religious. I mean what someone feels in their heart. So what about my mother? She was born in Italy but has no Italian blood. She came here when she was eight, and although she speaks fluent Italian, she has no accent in English and considers America her country. She wouldn't move to Italy even if you paid her for the rest of her life. Her idea of a vacation is to go cross-country. While she doesn't hate Europe, she has no interest in visiting. I'd consider her an American in all the positive aspects of the word and I think that most people would agree with me. In my case, I'm fully willing to do the same. I just don't have the finances right now and need to work a bit more on my independence. So I'm not "pretending" to be a Greek because I'm not claiming to be a citizen or saying that I was born there. It's just that I know that I feel strongly enough to say it. If a foreigner comes to America and fights in an American war, would he/she be pretending? What if he were disabled and had the desire to do it but couldn't? Should that be counted against him? Why should my finances and disability be counted against me when I've already made up my mind as to where my loyalties lie? Wouldn't it be disrespectful to call me an American in anything other than a legal way if my patriotism isn't with this country?
If you go to good restaurants, the food will be authentic, yes. This is true for most nationalities, particularly Italian. But your standard restaurant, particularly chinese ones, will serve Americanised versions of things. I know that diners and even some places that pass themselves off as Greek restaurants even serve American foods or things that don't use truly authentic ingredients. Then again, I've gone to places where Spiros told me the food tastes like it was made in someone's kitchen in a village. I'm glad to hear that real American food has actually made it's way abroad. This is a good thing.
America has a penchant for censorship of language, nudity and the like, yet it allows truly violent things to be seen on television. I really don't understand this. As for Greece, I think that being an outsider looking in, I can appreciate both the good and the bad and can see them objectively. For as much as I love my country, I'm still willing to admit when we're wrong. So maybe, you're right about it being that way with America too. I'm not really sure what I'll miss, other than knowing that I have a guaranteed place to live and food on the table. Of course, I'd miss my family, my boyfriend and so on but these are not national things. I thank you for agreeing with some of the points that I've raised. It's really sad that they're true. But what did you mean by "And your image of what foreigners think of America is, at least partly, suffering from the same problems and prejudice that you ascribe to Americans in general"? I was curious about that. Also, even according to your own views, if the society that you joined was Germany and if you took an active part in it, wouldn't you essentially then become a German?
Here's a quote that I love from one of the ancients.
Taken from
http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Live/Writer/Isocrates.html
I've only included English to save the nonGreek screenreader users on here.
"The name Greek is no longer a mark of a race, but of an outlook, and is accorded to those who share our culture rather than our blood)
Source
Isocrates (c. 436-–338 BC)"
but you are an american. and even if you go to live in greece, learn the language, live in the culture, you will still be an american. You cannot change your country of origin, yes you can feel a greater allegiance to a country that isn't your country of birth, but you are and always will be an american.
And of course one can acknowledge the wrongs of one's countrymen and distance oneself from them, but that still doesn't change the facts.
I was born in the UK but grew up in south Africa. I spoke afrikaans as a first language, I am a naturalized citizin due to the duration of time I lived there, but I am not south african.
And while I can see that one would feel a part of a country one lived in, I find it frankly odd that someone can claim to be from a country when they have never even set foot there, and it's pretty insulting to the people of that country...
If you want to go by birth and blood, then no one has the right to call themselves Americans except the Native Americans because all the rest have ancestors from other parts of the world. If you start including those, then it becomes a matter of who's more American, someone whose family was here for generations or the child of a first-generation immigrant. If a couple, say from the UK, was visiting America and had a baby, then immediately went back to the UK, what would you call the baby, American or British? What if someone was brought up with very strong roots from another country, and as a result, felt more that they belonged there than here? In Greece, even if a child is born there, if he/she doesn't have Greek parents (or parents who are citizens) that child isn't automatically a citizen. As for how natives feel, I've heard both sides of the coin, though your's only about two times in my life. Almost all Greeks, particularly when they say how serious I am, say the same thing. "You're more Greek than most Greeks there." Some were my friends, so you could chalk it up to that, but some barely knew me and one was simply told of me offhandedly by another friend. So there must be something to it.
b and sb are totally correct.
Also, you're labouring under quite a few misconceptions here.'
The reasons why they teach French and Spanish in schools in the USA is because they are the most useful. School isn't just about learning for pleasure. For most people it's about learning for the future so they can have a career. it just so happens that more languages are available for use in europe, but the most important to the americans arre probably going to be french and spanish, given the number of latin americans that live in the US, and given the countries close proximity to canada. I know that some schools offer alternatives, namely Japanese, becauseit is a useful language to know. for anyone considering foreign languages as a part of their career, one of these languages will probably be most likely to gain them employment.
Secondly, highschool children don't come away with many foreign languages, it depends on the country that they live in, and if they have laws that state they have to learn one. Usually school kids learn 1 extra language in the UK, and they do not have to take it to the highest level if they don't want to, only GCSE's. and according to a friend in the UK, that really only gives them some tourist french or german or whatever, that most of them, who aren't continuing, forget in quicktime.
Admitedly, some countries, belgium and switzerland noteably, people do have to learn more than 1 foreign language, but that's because they have to. The belgians have 2 national languages, and so it's necessary for them to study both, however, if they are forced to talk to someone who speaks the other language, they will still try and speak their own language if they can get away with it, especially the french speaking belgians. Learning another language doesn't take away their general arrogance and pride for their own language. They also learn english, usually, though this is not compulsarry, but that doesn't mean, that if a tourist asks one for help, that they will speak to them in English. trust me, I've been there.
As for Switzerland, yes, it's not unusual for someone to speak 3 languages, perhaps even 4, but that's not because they're some kind of angelic race who are incredibly culturally tollerant, because they aren't. The Swiss are friendly, and a lot of things but the majority, while they don't so much mind if you're a tourist, if you want to live here, they become incredibly unwelcoming. they do not like immigration, and their laws reflect this.
The swiss learn languages mostly because they are another country with lots of national languages. they have 4, though not many speak the 4th language, romanisch. The Swiss speak french, german and italian depending on where they live. On top of this, they will often learn one of the others. the german speakers often learn French and so on. However, as I've pointed out, they aren't some super tollerant race of people, they learn these languages because they have to. Like the french speaking belgians, the french speaking Swiss will force people from the german speaking areas to speak french, rather than speaking the german they learnt in school. The other language they might learn is English, if they want ot go to university, they have to.
As for the other european countries, most of them, if they study second languages, they study English, because it's the most useful language to learn. Almost everyone in scandinavia has a grasp of English, and a good deal of germany does as well. so, it's not like they are learning obscure languages in school to teach them some sort of values, they're learning the language of america!
I suggest that what you need to do is actually travel and get out there and learn a bit about the places that you're making generalisations of, because I have travelled to a lot of places, and I can tell you that a lot of what you're saying is not exactly true.
and lastly, like I've said before. Your nationality depends on where you are born, for the most part. the children of immigrants and refugees in australia don't go around calling themselves vietnamese, or chinese or whatever for the most part, they say they are australian, mostly. where you're born is what you are. I'm an australian, I will always be one because I was born there. I carry an australian passport, I can't delude myself into thinking I'm something that I'm not, and I'm proud of some of the things my country has done, and you should be too. you don't have to look always at the bad, I don't, but there's plenty of good you can be proud of.
I can't add anything here that posts 2 and 4 haven't already very correctly said.
Swiss Griff, thank you. I can tell you're posts come from someone who has traveled, and someone who has really done her research.
swiss Griff, I wish there were more people like you...the world would truly be a much better place.
Tiffinitsa, I suggest you get your head out of the clouds, and recognize how lucky you are to be born in America where you have the freedom to say whatever the fuck you want without being persecuted for what you believe in. sure it's censored in some places, but at least you can say you don't like America without going to jail, or worse, being killed. I suggest you do some research on Greece, my friend, before spewing facts just to make yourself feel credible. how come you never speak of modern Greece? if it's so precious to you, why don't you give us multiple bits of knowledge, instead of just your version of how you see things? I understand you're passionate about Greece, but I also recognize the fact you aren't giving us the good, the bad, and the ugly so to speak.
Post 1 reads like a high school essay.
America is not deliberately exporting our culture and ideas anymore than any other place has done before, or will do after, us. People take those ideas, products, services, and integrate them into their own society. Cultures are not artificial game preserves where one group conducts business and affairs the exact same way it always has for millennia and yet is automagically tolerant of other races and cultures because guess-what-part-of-the-world says they ought to be. Humans have always migrated all over the place - all the way back to the days of flint knapping. Humans always spread their ideas, not necessarily on purpose but because those ideas happen to work, and bring back newfound ideas from elsewhere.
I'm no jingoist, and often feel embarrassed about our government's actions the same way you feel embarrassed about a forty-something relative who never keeps a job, or has some other social misfit characteristic, or maybe the way some of you all talk about the awkwardness things on here. However, for all this country's foibles - which are many - there are a lot of positives. Ironically, people who live here, when they say "American" tend to think regionally.
One of you mentioned hushpuppies: I had never even seen a hushpuppy till moving to Florida for a while, and only ate half of one: regional soul food for some, bleh for others of us.
Do you really want to know about the "Real story" behind Thanksgiving? The conservatives won't tell you this, the liberals simply won't. It's basically a story of misfortune, innovation and survival.
When the colonists set out from England, basically a group of religious zealots wanting to worship in a way other than was welcome, they did so with relatively few skills comparative to many explorers who set out. Certainly they had more basic skills than the nobility at Jamestown, but they were not experts; almost all were ordinary people, and almost all had never set sail. Their ship was underrigged for the venture, they got lost thinking they were headed towards the southern shore (Virginia or thereabouts), and because they couldn't dead reckon properly, among other things, they ended up circling Cape Cod (where a few died) and landed at Plymouth.
Add to this, that nobody could have predicted the climactic problems they were about to face: This wasn't foggy England, but the windswept Northeastern U.S. (or what would become the U.S.) The winter of the year they landed, the whole area was subjected to unusually cold and bitter conditions, by which many of the population died. Because they didn't know how to work the new ground the subsequent year, their crop yields were pretty low, and they were subjected yet again to another winter of starvation and bitter conditions. Since they'd been making some arrangements with the local populations, said populations instead of wiping them out (as they easily could have), actually taught them how to plant corn, fertilizing the rows with buried fishheads. Thanksgiving was their first winter feast, after two years of what would now be called pavement-pounding service in which more than half their population died. They knew when they came over the sea there was no going back. They weren't sponsored by a mercantile corporation or the Crown like many other colonies were.
And, incidentally, it took nearly a couple hundred years after that event before Thanksgiving was acknowledged, named, and given a public holiday status.
But as to the story of how it happened: Zane Grey, Louis L'Moore or any other western writer, eat your heart out!
Much can be learned from that particular time for that colony, the least of which religious zeal is certainly not enough to get you by, not without the kindness of some nearby population willing to lend a hand. But these people didn't run the natives off: their descendants ran the descendants of the natives off. They no more mistreated the natives than you or I have. Ironically, the Native populations could easily have either let the colonists starve, or waited till they were weak and wiped them out. They would never have been heard from again, since semi-nomadic populations are particularly skilled at destroying any evidence of encampments. That, in point of fact, rathre adds to the shamefulness of the way later groups treated the natives. But that doesn't reflect on America as a whole.
Anyway enough ramblings from me.
Amen Chelsea. Having an affinity for a country one hasn't visited is one thing, and an acceptable thing. But such juvenile generalizations about America in favour of said country are quite another.
I actually take a slightly less drastic view of rights to claim a nationality.
Yes, if you went to country X, fought for them, or lived there for a while, I think you can claim nationality or belonging there, if that is what you truly felt you wanted to do.
But you cannot claim to be from a country you have never visited, lived in or really fought for, you have to earn the right, and you haven´t yet, no matter how much you wish you had. You must do more than talk about it.
I will never be an American, despite having received my university eucation here and having two sons that are for all practical purposes, American, though only our younger son was actually born here and has an American passport. That´s fine, but I definitely have some, really a lot, affinity for America by now since the country provided me with opportunities and education I could not get in my country of birth, but for me this changes nothing. I am still a foreigner here and would be even if I, say, fought for America.
A lot of the Greek food I ate in Greece this summer wa, you may be guessed it Fre nch fries and greek salad, very similar to Greek/American food over here.
And if you think about it, America is a melting pot of cultures, notice how Indian food has been the big craze in large parts of the U.S. recently, Mexican/Tex Mex has been huge. When you want good wine or good furniture people here look for "made in Europe" or "made in Italy", when something is supposed to be classy and snobby the guy who reads the ads usually has a British accent.
I think it is hard to find a truly American cultures, it is a big mix of European and Latin American cultures that people here are trying to melt into an identity. I think this is great. I actually went to a very authentic Chinese restaurant here once and I am glad they invented the American, i.e. edible, version of Chinese food I must say. ;)
I like the fact most people here are really trying to create something unique and great, they are trying to be the best country in the world, but they fail on many levels but failing is ok, as long as people try.
And I disagree with "at least you are allowed to criticize your country, be greateful"... statements, most western countries have equal or greater, freedom of opinion and speech. Part of the freedom is due to American military protection, but, again, the initial technology for industrialization came from the UK, the Jewish scientists from Germany and elsewhere contributed technology e.g. nuclear, Asian people came here and provided labour, the smartest people from around the world still come here to get degrees and do research. So, yes, America may have given a lot to the world, but it wouldn´t have existed or developed with contributions from around the world either.
To SwissGriff: Learning a language doesn't make you tolerant. It simply makes you educated and I can understand that some people learn them out of necessity. Grandma was born in Croatia, then moved to Italy when young. So she naturally knew Yugoslavian (which is still how she refers to it) and Italian. But she also learned French, Russian and German in school during World War II. Then, she came to America and learned English from the newspapers and Spanish from her co-workers. Of course, it's to be expected that not everyone remembers everything. Languages aren't for everyone, and even for those who enjoy them, if they don't use what they've learned, they forget it. But being exposed to different ones and to culture is a good thing.
Some countries don't like immigration because they want to keep a homogenious society. I could certainly understand this in the case of the Swiss. From all that I've heard, their crime rate is very low, they stay out of wars, the country is very clean and so on. So I can't blame them for wanting to stay that way. I would too. Greece has eleven million people, one million of whom are immigrants. Many of these are refugees, who simply left their country to avoid whatever was going on there. Many don't care about assimilating into Hellenic culture or about the country. Some who are not refugees just stay to send money back home. The problem has become so severe that some islands have begged the government for help.
To fighter of love and life: In 2010, you can say that you don't like Greece or living there. There is even a song "Kalimera Ellada" and probably many others as well, dealing with the corruption an things going on today. What is it that you want to know? My main interest is actually in modern and not in ancient Greece. I must also say that there are times when censorship is appropriate, during a dictatorship, for example. The only problem there, of course, is whether the dictator/s are really looking after the needs of the country and whether they intend on fixing them in a decent manner i.e. not harming the innocent or at least keeping their casualties as low as possible.
To LeoGuardian: As I said, I actually wrote it as an essay. A friend of mine had to write something a few years ago about America, so I figured that I'd write what being American meant to me. So it is a bit dry and emotionless. But now that I'm writing live, as it were, I can add my thoughts as they come to mind and not worry about fitting the format. Needless to say, you're right about humans spreading culture. But some groups, throughout history, have done it on purpose i.e. the Romans, later the rest of Europe and now the Americans. Only their way isn't always by conquering in wars. I was the one who mentioned hushpuppies. To be honest, I've never seen them either, but my point was despite the fact that America does actually have some culture, it's mostly the national things that make it out of the country. Now I was happily proven wrong on this as far as food, but the image that I had before was going to another country and seeing MacDonald's. It's not that this is necessarily a bad thing, but it is ruining the cultural authenticity of the place, especially when it's not only the tourists who are turning to fast foods but also the natives. It's the same with music. If you take a sampling of any five countries in Europe (I can't speak for the other continents), you'll mostly find the same kind of thing, rock, electronica, rap etc. But where is the traditional music of these countries? Even where it exists, now, in most cases, it's been moddernised with instruments directly from the foreign cultures.
Thanks for the history of Thanksgiving. I mean this sincerely, as I like learning things. These people, as you've shown, were decent and didn't hurt anyone. But the fact still remains that their descendents did. So while celebrating the original Thanksgiving makes sense in that context, it's also like celebrating the fact that these settlers and the kindness of the natives paved the way for the destruction that took place later on. Basically, you were kind to my ancestors and now, because I have power, I'll kill you for it. I don't often talk about this, but among all my mixed blood (English, Irish, Croatian, Whelsh, Polish) I also have a tiny drop of Native American in me that I just found out about last year, along with the Polish and Whelsh. I've always respected them and though these views have largely passed into history now, I was always annoyed at those Westerns for the damage that they caused on the nonNative mindset.
To leaffan: This essay was never meant to be about Greece versus America nor did I write it to show why I love Greece over America. I wrote it to highlight my thoughts on Americans. I know fully well that Greece has it's own problems, some of which America couldn't top in it's wildest dreams. I've written several essays (not like this but alot more free-flowing) about the things going on today but never posted them here because I didn't think that anyone would have the interest or even know to what I was referring.
To wildebrew: At least you're speaking sensably and I can understand your viewpoint. I feel that way about the Greek part of Cyprus. I'm friendly towards them and would help them out if I could. I technically owe them, since they were the ones who put up the lessons that I take online. But I would never call myself a Greek Cypriot, only a friend of their's. As I've said, I can't claim to be from Greece either and wouldn't do so. I would be willing to prove my loyalty in whatever way possible. But as you've said, I haven't done anything yet, and of course, I must agree with you. Legally, I can't call Greece "my country" because I'm not a citizen. But I feel as if I was thrown into the diaspora, through no fault of my own, and must now fight to get home. So I really don't know what else to call myself, a woman with a Greek soul trapped in the body of one born in America? lol
Seriously, though, very interesting observations about wine, furniture and class and/or snobbishness. The ironic thing here is that America actually makes decent products if you can actually find them. It's really sad how the outsourcing etc. has destroyed the manufacturing industry here, but it's happening all over the place.
Wow! You went to a real chinese place? Where? I've been looking for one everywhere and can't find one. What kinds of food did they have? Thank you for point out the bit about freedom of speech. I also like what you said about America not being able to do things without contributions from the rest of the world. Certainly, you made an excellent point about the Industrial Revolution.
Actually, Tiffanitsa, I completely agree with you about outsourcing. I think it's nothing more than excuse to get some cheap and abundant labor, and it needs to be cut back to a minimum, if not stopped completely. Let people from these other countries find their own jobs in their own countries. Or, if you insist on outsourcing, there's no reason they shouldn't earn the wages people would earn at the same job if they were American.
Now, I've spoken to a native greek friend of mine about so-called hellenic culture and religion, and I have heard from him, that they are a very small group of people who worship the old gods and try to get the government to stop tourism in some of the well known places in greece, in fact, my friend went as far as to say that they are often considered a joke.
so it's little wonder that people who move to greece don't want to intergrate into a small minority who get laughed at a lot.
I am a Hellenic Polytheist, yes. But when I say Hellenic culture, I'm referring to the culture at large today. To be honest, many co-religionists in Greece view The Gods in a more neoplatonic way, that is, aspects of one being, whereas many more of us throughout the world, myself included, view Them as individual beings. However, the ones in Greece are making huge strides towards freedom. We have a very uneasy relationship with the Greek Orthodox Church in general. Most common people in Greece either don't know about us, couldn't care less, except us as just part of society, probably hoping we'll go away and a few outright reject us. The Orthodox ones here in America are mostly tolerant. But the official position is that of rejection. That said, some of the groups there, one in particular, has very strong antiChristian views that I don't support. I don't think we'll get anywhere with those kinds of attitudes, just as I don't think that we blind people will get anywhere being totally rude to, and refusing to work with, the rest of the world which is sighted. I'm also not about trying to convert anyone to my religion and neither are most of us. We just want to be able to worship in peace, and either to have modern temples built or to be able to respectfully worship in the ancient places.
Well, to me it just seems you need to get off the pot, so to speak and work towards moving to Greece. Nothing wrong with that dream, but you need to pursue it and put on the Greek label once you have achieved it, you have not really come out of the Gree closet yet so to speak.
The restaurant was in Seattle and I went there with my interna manager at Microsoft, a Chinese guy. Lots of boiled chicken and boiled beans and boiled eggs, rotten eggs and various very odd things, and pearl tea (tea with large balls of gello type stuff in it in different flavors). The west coast has huge supplise of China towns and Chinese places so that would be your best bet. I can't say I liked it, but it was my first, and may be only, time.
Europe is fortunately changing in some ways regarding culture. Culture is back in fashion. The German/Swiss/Austrian Schlager ovment is taking their old songs and putting them into modern dance versions. Sure it is not the same, but it rekindles people's love affair with their culture, language and the songs of their parents, and the parents enjoy it because the kids are finding those things cool again.
For more eastern European revival, check out Shantel, German DJ who has assembled Serbian, Bulgerian and other musicians to remae that music, Planet Paprika and Disko Partizani are the two albums. The music is wildly popular now even if it has been modernized a bit.
It all points to an identity revival across Europe. It is normal and I think things like this come in waves. In the 1970s people predicted there would only be 4 types of beer in the world, as the big manufacturers had bought up everything else. Then a host of small breweries around San Fransisco started making customized or small brews with different flavors, now the world is back to thousands of options and local breweries are fashionable and unique (saw this on a discovery channel special about beer, so I take it for what its worth, probably near the truth but exaggerated). It still goes to show that people do not give up their culture easily, and some of their culture can be a big hit all arond the world, but nations and cultures change and the art reflects that.
Sure, there´s MacDonnalds and Starbucks in most places that is true, and it offers the non adventurous and boring tourist with safe choices, but they are definitely not fashionable, at least not Mickey Ds.
As for outsourcing, we are global, information can be written everywhere and collected rom anywhere, when you get can something cheaper you go for it. Sadly companies do that and then give tens of millions to their top managers, even when they fail, and that angers me.
Outsourcing has a lot of problems with communication and structure and many projects fail or are overly expensive because they are not implemented correctly.
Also as money flows out of the country the dollar is forced to devalue, maing foreign labor more expensive. Couple that with increased wage demands in said countries and the tides of economics will move labor back to the U.S. eventually.
Very interesting. I can't say I've ever been to a Chinese place like that. I'm a tea lover, so naturally, now I'm fascinated by this one. I wonder how it tastes and if they sell it in packages? I must look. I wonder if you mean bubble tea! I've heard of that stuff... I'm really glad to hear that about Europe. As much as it annoys me personally to hear these modern dance things passing themselves off as traditional music, it's at least a step in the right direction. If nothing else, it preserves it in some form, and as you said, sparks interest in the youth, which is very important. I heard the same thing about beer, but not sure where.
IAs a consumer, I'd rather get the slightly more expensive thing if it means that it will last. I'm sick of buying things and having them break down, which is why I usually look for older stock. But what truly angers me is when you call a company for help and get this foreigner on the other line who barely speaks English. I wouldn't mind it if I could actually be understood, and in turn, understand them, but I hate it when a company is based in America and does this. At least hire people from the UK or something! I love economics so it will be very interesting to watch how things go. Hopefully, you're right about things returning here.
actually, it's not just in dance music that some cultures are making a comeback. The swiss charts see frequent appearances from artests like Melanie Oesh and others performing traditional music as it's ment to be.
No way! Wow! Way to go. Must check it out.
You are an American. You may be obsessed with Greece but it's just an obsession you appear to be unable to grow out of. Greeks in Greece wouldn't consider you Greek, just like if I proclaimed that I am American even though I have never been there, the vast Majority of Americans would tell me I'm not. They may even say I am strange. I'd agree with them.
I am English, and Tifanitsa is an American.
As for the influence of US brands abroad, people have chosen to consume those brands. Nobody forced them to. They could have consumed other brands instead. Many people still do.
Then there must be alot of strange people in Greece, because a ton of them, as well as other Greeks living abroad, both born there and born in the countries in which they resided, came to my defence, as did many nonGreeks, when this issue came up a few months ago. I've only had one Greek tell me outright that I'm not one but he was a blood fanatic and wouldn't have accepted me even if I became a citizen and lived there for 50 years. Btw, while my birth name is Tiffany, and while my username here is Tiffanitsa, I prefer to be called Eleni and will change that legally one day too...
The only American music is jazz. Rock 'n' Roll has been a blend of tons of varieties.
What about rag time and country?
Country is just pretty much a dirivitave of the folk music of europe.
where do you think they got yodelling from?
As for all this stuff you want to do, well, I'm going to play devil's advocate here and simply point out that you haven't done them. You're over 18, and if the rules are anything like australia, well past the age when you can legally change your name, but you haven't done that.
As someone who is moving to europe, and currently going through the Swiss immigration process, I can safely point out to you how difficult it is for a non-EU/Schengen citizen to gain entry into a european country. You have to have a good reason for being there, and you have to be able to support yourself while there, or have someone who will support you, and who will pay the fines and costs if anything goes wrong.
If I am deported for any legal reason once I have swiss residency, if I go missing in Switzerland or anything like that by my own hand, my fiance will have to pay a large sum of money to the authorities.
My point is, is that you have to have a bloody good reason for wanting to immigrate, and your 'I'm really greek inside and I worship the greek gods' reason just won't cut it. They won't even consider you if that's all you have.
You have to have a partner in Greece, have close family in greece, want to be educated in Greece, for which you need a lot of money, or you have to have some sort of job in Greece, and if you're blind, they pretty much won't give you a working permit unless you have a job already lined up and an employer will back you for it, or if you have a lot of money saved up for your living expenses.
In fact, I have a feeling that greece might even be a little more strict about all that, if my friend is to be believed.
You keep going on and on about the fact that you're going to move their and everything, but I personally don't think you know what you're getting into, and if you don't, then you're going to be severely disappointed if you apply for residency and it gets knocked back.
I haven't done it, not because I don't want to, but because it's quite expensive. I need to fill out forms (not easy to do on my own so that will cost about $75 to have a company help me if I don't get a lawyer), go to court (fee for papers may be waved but if not there's that to consider), then, if given the okay, post to at least two different newspapers about the name change (more money), then go back to court to have the judge give me the approval, and then send out evidence of the name change to government agencies and anyone else who does business with me (money of shipping papers plus the fees each time I get a noterised paper). I was told, all and all, even without a lawyer, to expect to pay $1,000. I can't even think of that much money at once let alone pay it. At least, when I do move to Greece, I'll have some money in my pocket. Yes, I'm aware of sponsorship, which is another thing keeping me here. I didn't know, however, that they could legally say that they'll support me if I can't support myself i.e. they'll give me a job so that I will remain financially stable. Technically, I can obtain EU citizenship, since my mother was born in Italy, so I may do that. The only thing is, as someone once told me, it would be like using Italy as a stepping stone, which is unfair to them. I've heard that I wouldn't technically be a citizen of there but rather, of Europe, but others have disputed that. Still, that's easy. I'd just need to go to the Italian embasy with Mom's papers and have it done. As for legal reasons, I do have a certificate to teach English as a Second Language, something which I know is needed, a BA in Sociology for what it's worth and am blind, so could probably also help out in learning braille. Spiros said that he knows of someone who works in a blind school who would be willing to accept me as an ESL instructor to the children there. I've heard that they have switchboard jobs open to the blind, but they're probably only for citizens and residents. All that said, money is a huge motivator, so if I get enough, I could probably buy my way in. It's sad but true.
No no, usually the thing about financial support is that they will want someone to say that they will be responsible for all your costs if you can't pay them, and if for any reason you go missing in greece, as in, become an illegal, whoever says that they will be responsible will be liable to pay the government money.
Also, the usual way they will except that you have employment, is if the agency in question garuntees you a job on paper, and even then, you still risk not being allowed in. It has to be the sort of job that will be able to support your housing and food and all other necessities. Young people with no huge disabilities can get working permits a lot easier, but if you are disabled, the government knows that there is a lot less chance of you being able to find jobs. If you find one job, you run the risk of losing it and then being stuck in greece with not much money, and this isn't a situation that's desirable for any country. Exchange students have to go through a lot of this stuff also.
Not to mention the simple fact that the older you get the harder it is to get a residency visa. it's just a fact. I know that some european countries pretty much will knock back anyone who's over 26.
Ah, I see! That makes things alot easier. I thought I was supposed to have this stash of money that I should fall back on if I had to do so. Well, considering that I'm blind, and if this works out, would be hired by a blind school, that helps. I could also most likely find the ESL places, since they're always looking for people, especially in the summer. If absolute worse comes to worst, I've got a few friends with very good political connections. Still, what you said about age really scares me. I'm 26 now!
and since you are from jersey why not just go across the gw and go to chinatown in Canal street in Nyc?
Yeah, good point! Maybe, Spiros can take me there some time. We were there once, but not to eat. I remember, though, that we picked up these delicious nuts with honey on them. Yummy!
So basically, what you've just said in way too much arrogant, self-obsessed text, is that you refuse to subscribe to American beliefs because they do not fit with what you believe.
American beliefs are American because they're not supposed to fit any one other country. If you support gay marriage but hate the idea of abortion, you're allowed to hold both opinions. If you want to be a fat fuck and eat all the junk food you can afford, you get to do that. If you want to be rich and drive around in fancy cars, you're given the opportunity to try.
America kind of sucks. But so does any large-scale government that has to oversee a huge-ass population that encompasses almost every other culture in the world, in one small area.
If you don't like how it is right now, you have several options. You could volunteer for a cause - a religion, a political party, a homeless shelter, a summer camp for disabled kids. You could work in politics - run for a local government office or school chair position. You could vote for politicians who support your ideas. You could find the things that interest you about the world and share them with your friends and whoever else will listen.
But really, bitching on the internet is easier. After all, in two months' time, who on this thread will ever remember that you posted it? And two months after you eventually leave this website, who will remember you? Anonymity is beautiful in that you don't get to cause any change in the world, nor do you get to be immortalized.
One of the problems about America, in respect to it's government, is the fact that so many laws aren't nationwide, but rather, statewide. So, for example, an 18-year-old could cross the boarder into the neighbouring state if his/her's doesn't allow drinking until 21. Some states allow driving at 16 while others only allow a permit at 18. Healthcare, government funded programs, education, hell, even marriage (which can be a good or a bad thing) are all different across state lines. It really is like a bunch of states with a big government at the centre and a few universal laws to hold it together. I wouldn't work in politics here but I do vote for those whom I think aren't as bad as the rest. All politicians are fucked up, no matter where you go in the world. I sign petitions for causes that move me. I also give food to the homeless if Mom tells me that she sees them and donate my clothing to the poor. When I cut my hair in high school, I donated it to Locks of Love for children with cancer. I also post news items and general other things that interest me in various places. I'm not out to change the world, though if given the chance to help those whom I love, I would certainly do it. I'm also not interested in hiding my identity. I've been here for several years now. I have my e-mail, my Facebook and other information in my profile. So I'm quite easy to find. And am I honestly the first person on this site who has bitched about something? I recall their being a rant board on here. I'm not sure about being immortalised, but I do hope to at least leave some kind of good mark on the world, and yes, that does also mean Greece, though it can mean something as simple as changing someone's life by doing something kind for him/her as well, when I leave it.
tiff, you're really not listening to what I'm saying...
If you want to stay there fore a reasonable amount of time, a summer job isn't going to help you achieve that.
If you're looking to stay there and work, and you have a severe disability that affects your ability to find jobs, then they are going to be 10 times more criticle of your application. I know this, because I have done research into applying for work visa's before, when I wanted to spend time in Europe. If you have a job offer, then that's fine, but it can't be a part time sort of thing, it has to be serious employment that will sustain you, because they most likely will not accept you if they think there is any chance that you will be stuck in a foreign country with no means of support. For a start, a lot of countries require you to have an amount of money in the bank, and they require you to prove it, on top of the fact that you're going to work. 5000 is an amount I've seen pop up before, and this isn't aside from the fact that they will want to see that you actually have a job to go to.
They want to cover their arses and make sure you've got enough to bale yourself out of the country if it all goes bad.
so yes, you do need to prove to them that you have means of support.
Now, as for what i said about someone to vouch for you, I sincerely think that employers will not do this, as it's a severe undertaking, and it's different to them saying that they will support you.
For example, those people who have partners who move to europe, often have to have their european partner vouch for their financial needs. Peter will have to pay for my health insurance, as well as any other fees that come up for me that I cannot pay. not to mention that he's liable for 20000 CHF if I decide to run off or something. You can get into most EU/Schengen countries this way apparently, but it's a big undertaking, and you have to think about things like healthcare and so on, because most of these countries won't cover you unless you're a citizen.
I see what you mean. *sigh* To my knowledge, and of course, I'll speak with them before hand, this is a full-time position and won't be going anywhere any time soon. I was unaware that there was a difference between supporting and vouging for someone. Is what your talking about sponsorship or is it something else? I didn't know that healthcare wasn't given to noncitizens, though it certainly makes sense. If I get the EU citizenship as a result of Mom's being born in Italy, will that make things easier? Thanks sincerely for taking the time to explain this to me. I already knew that there was alot involved, but it seems as if there's even more to it than I thought.
Well, if you were to change the world, or at least try to, you most likely wouldn't have any luck with changing our beliefs. I believe what I believe about America, and nobody's going to stop me from believing. I'm a Christian and I'll always be a Christian. I do believe that America is headed downhill and it'll reach the bottom in a heartbeat if this economy doesn't stabilize. But as far as changing this whole country to believe what you believe, that's not going to be possible.
If I put that much effort into changing a country's beliefs, it wouldn't be this one. I'd love to change the attitudes and behaviours of many Greeks, particularly politicians, but I think I have about as much chance of doing that on my own as I do waking up with complete sight tomorrow. In any case, that's not what I meant by changing the world and I don't want to try to make or even suggest that everyone believe as I do. But I do want to be respected for how I see myself and for the things that I do believe.
See, i'm not even certain that you will get EU citizenship if you've got an italian mother, especially if you're thinking they'll give it to you straight away. It probably depends on that countries rules. They may have a system where it's easy to get residency in Italy if you've got parental grounds for it, but you might have to do what most people do when they apply on the grounds of having family there and that's live there for a few years first. Then again, there's also the fact that if you are a resident, it still doesn't matter with regards to healthcare. basically the way it works is, if you're not a citizen, you get bugger all. they'll still take care of you of course, but you will have to pay the price, and if you can't, if you have a sponser and so on, they will be forced to pay it.
You're also not able to get any of the benifits with regard to travel and so on relating to your disability. Sponsership is pretty much the same, but it's not like anyone can just sponser people. There has to be a reason for them to bring you into the country. you can't just meet some random and get them to do it. usually they are family members or partners of the person they want to bring into the country. they are therefore, people who know the person concerned and are prepared to vouch for them financially and cover any costs that they
The UK will allow visa's on the grounds of ancestry, but it's not based souly on that, you have to prove you can support yourself or that you have support.
might have during their stay that they can't handle.
Why is it that all the people that say they hate america, or hate being an american, never renounce the freedoms that the american status gives them? I've known people who wore the down with america patches that were popular a few years back, and yet claimed that the first amendment gives them the right too. Well yeah, it does, but you hate the first amendment, because you hate america, and the constitution is what makes america. I find it completely and totally hypocritical that someone can sit there and spew their hate for america, and yet still benefit from all of our freedoms, and even the assistance that our country gives. I'm not saying you have to like everything about america. I don't know anyone who likes everything about anything. I certainly don't like anything about america, I could go on for pages of things I don't like. However, I'm thankful that I have the freedoms to dislike those things, and could write those pages without fear of retribution.
Personally, I think that the price of saying you hate everything about america, should be a one way ticket to another country. If you hate it so very much here, leave. If I don't like a place, I leave, I don't sit there a whine about it, while still benefitting from it. I don't go to a restaurant, order the food, then sti there complaining about how awful it tastes, while continuing to eat it.
I believe that most, and I say most, of the people who completely hate this country, have been coddled by this country, and have no idea what other countries are like. Talk to someone who lived in communist russia, or cuba, or nazi germany. Talk to someone who came here from a country that is awful, and ask them if they hate america. Most of them will say no, they will usually tell you its nearly paradise. And if you don't believe them, how about you go to the place they came from.
To SwissGriff: Mom spoke with a woman at the Italian embassy over the phone maybe two years ago who said that I could apply and be accepted within a month, so long as I had Mom's papers. I read that this is not exactly Italian citizenship, but rather, EU citizenship. But some friends said that this doesn't exist. So now I'm all confused. In any case, I'm not even sure if this would benefit me, though I think that it's probably better than just American citizenship. Accept serious emergencies, birth control and possibly a dentist (though I might go holistic on the last as well) I really don't see conventional doctors. To my knowledge, no country covers naturopathic medicine, so I'd need to pay out of pocket anyway. What did you mean about benefits of travel? The only ones that I know of in America are a reduced fair for public transport and the use of paratransit, a service for the blind and physically handicapped. If a potential sponsor says that the reason is for a job, do they need to prove that the job can't be done by a native or is it his/her perrogative whom he/she hires?
To SilverLightning: I do intend on renouncing my American citizenship once I get my Hellenic one... hopefully some time this millenium. But it's not because I hate America to the point that I consider it my enemy and wish them harm because I don't. I just don't want to owe my allegiance to them. I think this is being respectful to them and to myself. This is one of the reasons why I was hesitant about taking the Italian citizenship, if it's not a general EU one. I don't want to disrespect Italy by using them as a stepping stone, as I've already said. I've never said that America was the worst country in the world. In my original essay, I even pointed out it's freedoms, and yes, I do benefit from them and from the system. But as a citizen, which I am, I have the legal right to do so. I can't ask another country to give me these types of benefits, even if they offer them to their citizens, because I wouldn't be one. I wouldn't choose to live in a place with a serious lack of freedom, one that infringes on my life and makes it a hell. Only a serious nut job would do something like that. I like the ticket idea, but it wouldn't work unless the other country was willing to accept that person and let him/her work there. I could get a ticket to Greece tomorrow and can legally stay as a tourist for three months. But what would I do once that time was up if I couldn't return here? Yes, I can renounce citizenship now, so that I'd officially have no country, but I hear that makes things even harder!
as for the job question, I think it's very much a case of what kind of job it is. also it may depend on what country you're from, I know the UK people must prove that they will benifit from the immigrants services rather than a native, same as in australia.
In europe, you also have, if you are disabled the right to better money and health care if you are not working which includes medication at reduced costs.
As far as I know, no, there is no EU citizenship, however Italian citizenship would give you the right to reside and work in any part of europe as long as it's schengen.
However, I strongly think that no european country will hand out citizenship just like that, even if you have grounds on ancestry. I think what they will give you is residency, which is definitely not the same, and even if you have EU residency, which I'm not sure has the same working rights, you have much less than a citizen would. if you had any kind of medical emergancy that required surgery, you would be paying the costs. all of them.
what I suggest you do is actually start making these enquiries yourself rather than getting other people to do it for you, because firstly, it's a bit of a cop out having others make your enquiries for you, and secondly, then if you do it yourself it's purely you being informed and you're getting the information first hand.
And it's absolutely possible if you have an internet connection and access to a phone, because I made vertually all my enquiries while going through the Swiss visa process.
seriously, what you need to do is take your situation into your own hands, find out what you're able to get and do some serious research into Italian residency and the EU residency and Schengen.
I didn't ask Mom to make the call. She did that on her own. I certainly do intend on doing my own research. I've never heard of Schengen aside from your posts. I don't know about Italian citizenship, but I know that Greek can be gotten if at least one of your parents is a citizen. However, I'm not sure if their marriage has to be a Greek Orthodox one. I've also heard that you can obtain it through grandparents as a last resort. But they never said anything about having to live there if you have the blood, only if you don't. Hopefully, it's the same way with Italy. I'd be very happy to gain EU residency at least. While it's not as good as actual citizenship, it's still something and I can still probably work there more easily.
I really don't get this, like one of the peeps said above why don't you do some research on this stuff yourself instead of posting this stupid board and realizing you were wrong for it? Or maybe you should've kept this all to yourself?
that's just it, you say that you want to move to greece so much, but yet you say that you 'certainly intend' on doing your own research.
If you want it that badly, go away and actually do it, because until you actually make some steps toward living there and gaining that residency, and also start realising how bloody difficult it is going to be, you have very little credibility as someone who is wanting to emmigrate to another country.
Until you actually do something about your situation, you're just all greek talk and no action and the resolve to be greek that you are so passionate about just seems like nothing but hot air.
Somewhere in the midst of all the discussion going on here, I found these lines,
"After all, in two months' time, who on this thread will ever remember that you posted it? And two months after you eventually leave this website, who will remember you? Anonymity is beautiful in that you don't get to cause any change in the world, nor do you get to be immortalized."
...well, personally having been here {The Zonebbs} for some time now, though I only log on occasionally, yet still I have found this place to be a storehouse of knowledge... There are situations presented here that I would in many respects not have learned had I not made venture here. Somehow in the midst of all the anonymity and partial knowledge of folks here, yet though perhaps not changes in the world as a whole, yet changes within my own personal world there have been... some here, just a few, have within my thinking become immortalized...
Tiffanitsa,
Listen, you keep on...
As for me, though totally off topic and yet maybe not, depending on another's/your perspective...
Well, "The Lord of The Rings," became so meaningful to me that I consider I hold a citizenship in Middle Earth... I realize some are going to say, Where did that statement come from?
It's just that in a "Living Through" process as it were... we do come to hold and to treasure moments and locations and
Just too, as "The Maiden Fair" will always hold "The Capt'n Brave & True" in highest regard...
Learning, yes it takes place here and some, a few, will always be remembered... ...and treasured
By your making your comments here you have certainly provided for a wealth of thought to be recorded here.
Hey, you consider yourself Greek and not American, that is fine by me.. are we not all travellors here on this earth {or maybe more so Middle Earth &/or on board, The Zephyr Splendour...} So some of us are given to sail on The Waters Great that exist perhaps only in the realm of cyberness... so what? It works for me *Smiles
Love to you Tiffanitsa,
Connie {Grace}
To Miss Devious: While I admit that I should do research on citizenship and so on, this board was about my views on Americans, not on moving to Greece. I posted it because several people asked me why I didn't like them and I thought it would only be fair, given my previous posts here, to explain myself.
To SwissGriff: Even if my independence skills were wonderful, I don't have any money for a ticket, a hotel etc. Even if I want by plane instead of by ship as I'd like, it's still expensive. So right now, I can't even go as a guest. There might be a friend who would be willing to take me in but I couldn't expect him/her to pay for all my food etc. and to take me around. That said, Spiros knows someone who would be willing to take me to various places. Perhaps, I can go during the winter holidays when it's not so expensive.
Connie: Hugs to you my friend and thank you. That was beautifully written. I'm glad that you actually understand me. I also agree with you about learning things here. There are many viewpoints in all of thse boards, some that touch me and some that don't, but most make me think and learn in some way. There are even board postings from people who have long since left the websites or, sadly in some cases, life itself. Yet their words still remain with us.
...now making a plead to governing Greece, as it were
to be allowed this statement in tribute to One
that forever changed me... for better or worse...
{For one never knows when One is given to gallup through these Boards}
...and somewhere on a mountain top somewhere
riding on Midnight Black, the horse carrying
none other than the leader of the nine,
Ringwraith, who probably was one the most controversial here,
though used other usernames,
can be heard in memory,
"Oh feck off, will ya,
The Mountain Tops HAD BETTER ALWAYS REMAIN!"
Yes she doesn't understand that other places suffer from all the things she says America does, even her Greece. Greece had wars, people took others lands, women, disease was spread, and greed was around. America is just a mix of many, so it is diverse. The Europeans didn't infect the native American with smallpox deliberately, they had it themselves, so it was spread. The nature of humans is the same everyplace, so I agree with all here if you don't want to be American go to the place you want to live. It's not imporrible. Do exactly what others do to come to America to get to Greece. I wonder if you really know much about it at all, history and such things?
To be honest, I'm alot more knowledgeable on current events and politics. But as both a Hellenic Polytheist and patriot, I really do need to brush up on our history. After all, that's what made us so great back in the day.
Yeah, Forereel I totally get you on that. Greece isn't perfect, all it is is beautiful...
I want to move to a lot of places, but France to be specific is something different. Not because I hate America so there...And before I go, no I don't! and I repeat don't!!! think I belong to France. lol
so wait, you criticize our history, saying how awful we were for what happened to the native americans, when you don't even know about Greece's history? So then you don't know about the fact that the greeks once conquered anyone who they thought inferior, just because they didn't agree with their ways? You don't know that Alexander the Great was greek, and conquered the known world, just because he wanted to? You don't know that it was common to torture persian soldiers to death, simply because they were persian. You don't know that it was perfectly acceptible for a greek boxer to rip his opponent's intestines out with his bare hands, so long as it didn't violate the rules of the fight that were set down by the referee? You don't know all these things, and yet you have the gaul to act like our history is barbaric? That is purely and utterly disgusting on a mental and academic level. To curse a culture so thoroughly, to spew so much vile hatred, and compare it to a culture you seem to think is still swimmin in the golden age. Yet later admitting you know little of the history of that culture.
I left my spelling errors and mistaken facts in here to show that I didn't research this time in order to answer. However, if I do so in the future, in order to clarify things and have more accurate answers, I will let you know...
You're comparing a few hundred years ago versus a few thousand. The mindsets were entirely different. But okay. I never said that we were perfect then or now. I'm aware that there were terrible things that happened during war but war is just that and terrible things happen during all wars, weather past, present or future. Back then, the main purpose of war was to conquer. Still, it was The Romans who truly exploited this fact and also who were extremely barberic. Now I have many friends who practise Religio Romana. They are very organised and intelligent and I grately admire their ancients for the many things they did (many were stolen but a few were their own). I also love gladiatorial combat. But they were also known to take things way overboard which, along with Christianity, is one of the reasons why, the Roman Empire fell. I see this same attitude prevailing in the actions of America as a nation today, though slightly different to fit the time period. I'm sure, as you said, that this happened during the reign of Alexander, who, from what I've heard, was actually a Macedonian in blood and in culture. I also think that by incorperating all of these foreigners, he changed the fabric of Hellenic (actually Hellenistic at that time) society. Yet neither he nor the Romans tried to impose their belief system on anyone. So long as they paid their taxes and were loyal to The Empire, they were mostly left alone. I have heard some people refute this but very few. Most of the things I've read stressed the tolerance of Rome when it came to other faiths and no one ever mentioned the city states of what is now Greece starting wars or continuning them simply over religion. I do know of the story of Milos, an island which wanted to remain neutral during a war and how Athens obliterated them because they refused to help them. I would never condone such actions and consider them shameful.
But if you want to stay ancient and get to the root, not only of America's problems but also many of Europe's as well, I'd turn to the Christians. Yes, they were persecuted in the beginning by the pagans. But that's no excuse for what they did: burning temples, raping women (they actually ripped a priestess apart publically), destroying sacred documents and statues, outlawing paganism and forcing people to convert to their religion under threat of death. Then, they started killing their own sects! After that, the east split from Rome and the Byzantine Empire began. During that time, the rest of Europe was going through the Middle Ages, which included The Crusades and forced conversions of Muslims, suppression of knowledge to the point that bathing was considered a sin because it might contribute to sexual arousal etc. Thankfully, the Arabs kept that knowledge. After that, the place that is now Greece got conquered by the Otoman Empire (now the Turks) and remained under their rule for 400 years, until regaining independence in 1821. And while all that was going on, Europe was still conquering, and soon afterword, the American West was settled with both the Mexicans and the Native Americans paying the price for expansion, under the idea that because they were pagans or uncivilised, they needed to be gotten out of the way and they had to be converted and taught about God.
While alot has obviously changed, the feeling of superiority still remains and while I will freely admit that America is better than many countries, just as was Rome, I also think that, as with the former empire, it bites off more than it can chew in many cases, both in war and in domestic affairs. Greece does not claim to be the greatest country in the world nor have I ever claimed that. While we have alot to live up to when it comes to the ancients, no one, not even those of us who follow The Gods, and we're not a huge number overall, are ancients. We are modern people following the ancient religion and this is a modern country with extremely important historical value but with ideas which have been shaped over the last two thousand years by Roman, Byzantine, Turkish, Modern Greek and now American and other influences. So while history is very important and should be learned, to compare ancient Greece to America, even in it's early days, would be like comparing 2010 England to the time of Chausser or even Shakespeare. Our ideas and ideals simply don't match. No Greek today, regardless of religion, would do what was done then.
Again, you can't say "we" or "our government", fine, you can, but you shouldn't. It isn't yours .. not until you have proved that you belong there .. i.e. move/get a citizenship/whatever, I think you are offending Greece by claiming to be Greek. Then, again, that is just how I feel and you can do and claim whatever you want, I just think it is offensive to the country, that's all.
Best way to immigrate to pretty much any country is through university and undergraduate/graduate stdies. It'll give you a stepping stone to society integration and possible realtionships or sponsorships that can naturalize you as much as you can be naturalized.
There is no such thing as EU citizenship, but once you are a citizen of an EU country you are entitled to certain rights and freedom of movement within the Euro zone, basically the EU and a few other countries. I do not know how this applies to a resident of one of the EU countries, and leave that as an exercise.
as far as I know, it's slightly different depending on weather the country is schengen or not...or maybe it's just that there are european countries that are not EU, like Switzerland and Norway, and schengen just allows the same movement between those countries without the nonsence of the EU.
and tiffanitsa, the greeks, most greeks, would consider alexander the great a greek, since to Greeks don't think that macedonia is a culture at all, and in fact, have pretty good arguments for why this is so.
To wildebrew: as I've said, I've had plenty of native Greeks, except one who never wrote back after I explained my views, agree with me when I call myself a Greek. One, when I mentioned what was going on here a few days ago, got so angry that she started cursing in my defense. Even my boyfriend, who has lived there for most of his life, agrees with me and I've sat down and asked him to be completely honest with the promise that I wouldn't get upset. My family considers me one as well, even though they don't fully understand it. So basically, I'd gain Italian citizenship and have certain rights within the EU. Then, once I gained Hellenic, I' renounce it, or keep it or what? I know that only I could answer the latter but my fear is that I'd be called into some kind of duty because of my citizenship... If, say, something happened in Italy and they weren't an enemy of Greece and I helped them, would that make me look like any less of a Hellenic patirot? Worse, what if they did become enemies? I doubt this would happen with America but it has happened with Italy at least once. I would hate to be caught in the middle, especially if it was before I gained Greek citizenship. Still, something's got to give. There has to be an easier way of doing this than simply using my American papers.
To SwissGriff: I'm aware of our problems with FYROM and don't like them either. But I had to bring up Alexander's lineage incase someone else did. I've heard, from an ancient source (must find it), that they actually spoke a different language than the Hellenes.
you keep going on about all this ancient stuff, but what really matters to the greeks is a bit more modern...Most greeks consider him a greek namely because the question of macedonian culture is one they're not interested in because they don't think there is one.
I'm sorry, I just have to lol at your stuff about italy having enemies...Italy is an EU member state, unless there's some huge breakdown of the EU within your lifetime, I seriously don't think that will be an issue. the EU just offers too many benifits for most countries involved, including Greece, who recently pretty much got bailed out by germany's money, for them to argue and fight.
In fact that's pretty much why it was set up, so that EU member states can have a closer relationship with one another.
However, that doesn't mean it hasn't got faults...other countries want Switzerland to join and Switzerland, thankfully are having none of it. Switzerland's people choose where their financial aid goes to, and that's something I approve of very strongly. Germany probably wants Switzerland to join purely to take some of the economic responsibility, because basically if you're an EU state who requires a huge amount of money, you're getting it from Germany. Switzerland's people however are a lot smarter than that, and are not interested in having their own countries standards lowered by EU membership. it wouldn't be benificial.
the same is true of Norway. both countries are strong states without EU membership.
oh, and as for your wanting an easier way in, I'm afraid that all other ways are much much harder. getting italian residency is probably the easiest way in for you, though you will still find it difficult. I haven't got EU blood in me at all, my parents were both australian, and my grandparents were born there, though my grandfather on the mother's side was cornish, his parents had only just moved to australia. However that fact gives me bugger all except my link to Cornwall.
There is still a chance I'll be knocked back Swiss Residency, if Peter and I don't satisfy the authorities as to our financial situation and that our marriage is not for convenience. Even after that, they can still, in 5 years time, knock back my citizenship application, even if Peter and I had a family [which we won't]
If you can get EU residency, I suggest you go for it, because if you want to be a citizen, that's the best way for you to go about it, even if it's italian citizenship, it will still allow you to live in greece and work there.
As I've stated, most of my interest in Hellenic history and culture is modern i.e. after The War of Independence. I'm much more aware of current affairs and politics than ancient ones, though I haven't read the news in quite awhile and need to start again, especially since I get an Athens news bulletin in my inbox every morning... Yeah, that thought about Italy is unrealistic, and that's a good thing. But who knows about the future of the EU, what with this huge economic crisis. I approve of it in some ways (granting more rights to people, for example), and in others, I'm really against it. Now we'll owe everyone, economically, militarily plus however else they choose to use us, for Gods only know how long. As bad as it sounds, I really wish we would've just went bankrupt. I think it would've been far better than being wrapped around someone's little finger because they helped us. Germany still owes us money from World War II, and if they paid it, that would go a very long way towards reducing the Greek debt but they'll never pay it.
I think considering they have paid greece large amounts of money since they joined the EU, not to mention all the other countries that have benifited from Germanies economy, they have well and truely paid their debts from World War II.
this is something that I am very opinionated about. the leaders of germany are not the ones that perpetrated the wrongs of the first or second world war, most of the german population wasn't even born at the time, or were little children when it happened, and certainly noone who was in power then is in power now.
so world war II shouldn't even come into it.
German people don't like their past, they don't like what their country was responsible for, but equally, they don't like being reminded about it in politics, when they go on holiday, and in other situations.
It's similar to some aboriginal people in australia saying that we owe them for the wrongs our ancestors did. We shouldn't feel great about our history, and yes, we should feel bad about what they did, because it was wrong and we should insure it doesn't happen again, but as far as owing and making us feel responsible goes, I'm not having any of that because I didn't do it.
Yeah, I suppose your's is a good point and if they've honestly paid enough to equal the money that was taken during German occupation, it should be enough. To be honest, I always felt a sort of guilt about having British blood and knowing what they did to the Native Americans. I felt that it wasn't my place to go on a reservation. But I then spoke with a Native who lifted the burden off of my shoulders by essentially saying what you did i.e. I may have the blood but I personally didn't do those things, so I shouldn't feel guilty. It really helped me feel better and now while I won't forget and say it didn't happen, I no longer feel the shame that I once did. You're totally right about Germans as a whole. Most certainly weren't responsible for the attrocities that happened then, and in a perfect world, while it would be good for them to remember in order to prevent them from happening again, they wouldn't be reminded of it in the ways that you've described. It's just that, being humans, our memory sometimes stretches way back to before we were born and it's hard to forgive old grudges, particularly when money is involved.
they will always remember, they have the consentration camps, the ruins, and the reincorperated, economically disadvantaged eastern germany to remind them.
The english are reminded of the nazis every 45 minutes, thanks to television and radio. an experiment was conducted by a german camera crew, who went to england and pretended to film a documentary. within moments of them starting to film, many of the english passers decided that what would really be funny would be to adopt severe military posturing, march up and down and make the nazi salute.
aside from the problems that I've already stated with the atitude that greece has to germany, I also have the issue that it wasn't just the germans who allowed hitler to get away with what he did, it was Austria and France too, but these countries suffer nothing of what the Germans have in the past because of their history.
We conveniently forget that the Austrians were all too happy to support the nazi regime and that the French also sent many of their jewish population off to the camps. hell, they surrendered...
What the fuck? Why would that be funny? What's wrong with these people? Definitely makes for an interesting anthropological study.
I don't agree with the statement that we can go back in time before we were born...if you're gonna say that, say we're able to go off what we're told.
I believe, and I may still be misunderstanding this, that there are three things, the EU the EEA (EU with special two-way contracts of free movements with Norway, Swtizerland, Iceland, may be Lichtenstein) and then there is the Shengen, which is passport free travel between certain countries, and then there is the Eurozone which is countries with the Euro, not all of which have to be in the EU, or even in the EEA, Estonia, for instance, has the Euro and I am pretty sure they are not in the EU. UK is part of the EEA, but does not have the Euro and does not support Shengen, hence the special airport checks and passport control in and out of the UK for EU citizens and Shengen members, so happily complex, as are many European affairs.
I believe the EEA is beasicaly the EU trying to get other countries to join, by offering them the benefits of EU membership without many of the costs. I believe many of these deals may be cancelled in future and then those countries will have to reassess their position and alliances. Switzerland, in particular, is pretty stuck in the middle of Europe and hard not to go along with it, if they do not manage to keep beneficial relationships with their surroundings. Also a lot more Germans are beginning to work in Swtizerland and change the culture a bit.
It was weird being in Austria, they tal a lot about their history, but the years between 1930 and 1950 are just not talkeda bout at all, it is as if they never happened, and people seem very sensitive taling about it.
Same with Germany, they have havd a lot of regret about their past and it has been very unfashionable to be proud of being a German, despite them achieving a lot of great things in sports and technology, and I quite like many of them. At some point they need to wor themselves through their past and move on, but it may take a while yet.
As for Greece, it was a very corrupt country with people holding multiple jobs they did not even show up for, and if they had gone bankrupt they might have simply fallen completely into the hands of those it owed money, and that could have been a lot omre serious.
Without foreign aid they cannot built the necessary infrastructure needed for job creationg and economic growth, at least that is what the creditors claim. Iceland is fighting with this balance now, with regard to the IceSave dispute, should way pay up hundreds of millions of dollars we technically may not owe at all (legal opinion vary) but to regain the trust of foreign investors, or should we stick to it, fight the legal fight to the end, and lose decades f international trust and possibly get no money to build new factories, or projects for construction and innovation.
It is a tough question to answer, and man of the countries that lived too high in the past have to settle down and figure them out.
The bail out of Greece has cost German tax payers billions and they are extremely upset and unhappy about that, it miht lead to the fall of the German government, come ellections, but if Gree bail out fails, essentially the idea of the EU has failed as well, so we live in interesting times.
And, sorry Tiff, I cannot tae you bveing Gree seriously, but that is just me and we can all claim to be what we feel is correct *grin*, in any case I am not Greek so my opinion on whether you are Greek or not does not matter to anyone at all, but I must encourage you, if you feel so strongly, to go for it and see if you can make it there and do someting more than dream about it.
Not sure Italian repatriation is that easy .. but may be it is.
If you really weren't an American, yu would not be living on benefit from the rest of us. But idealism is what it is, the love of the idea of something, it's nothing tangible or useful. Naturally, you'd call in American cops if you were robbed, take American transit, use American power, were born and educated here free of charge, so renounce your citizenship if you must but consider all those things first. I knew a extreme right-wing wingnut who renounced his American citizenship to try and avoid paying taxes. Not picking on the right here, couldn't be a leftie as they live on your taxes ... but anyway this guy still drove on roads everyone else paid for, used local police and fire everyone else paid for, but renounced his American citizenship or said that he did, and made a living at avoiding the IRS. You have reminded me of him, and I hadn't thought of him in ten years.
If you're so 'not an American,' do something about it, no excuses.
Schengen is the work agreement that basically allows a lot of germans to work in Switzerland. it allows free movement of people in schengen countries and freedom to live and seek work in any of them.
Norway isn't EU, but it is schengen, hense so many swedes working in Norway.
I think it will take a lot for switzerland to change its ways, and I'm happy about that. Switzerland is a better country than its neighbours. it's cleaner than most and free of a lot of the social issues that other countries have because of mass immigration. I also wouldn't want to see it change its system of government. I like the idea of a government being fully and totally accountable to the voters in a way that no other government I've heard of is.
Switzerland also has better civil rights than many other european countries and I don't want to see them lost.
not to mention that switzerland is the way it is because of money and their rather...relaxed laws about it. I don't want to see Switzerland change, and neither do most of its citizens.
I know that a lot of european countries don't like it, but as far as I and a lot of other people are concerned, that doesn't matter.
To wildebrew: Yeah, that sounds really! complicate. I do hope that, in time, people can begin to discuss what happened. I don't mean that they say "oh, it's okay now... it's just history" but talking about things and realising that they happened but that you're not to blame is a very good starting point for healing. Hiding things and being ashamed, particularly when you yourself didn't do anything wrong, can only cause heartache and unnecessary pain an guilt. Oh man! Don't even get me started on the corruption in Greece... It's absolutely ridiculous and is a major reason for the debt. It's certainly not the only one but it definitely caused it's share of trouble and still does. Every time I turn around, there's a new scandal, or someone was arrested for stealing millions of euros, or someone's resigning from office after being discovered... Economic growth can be accomplished when needless spending and stealing is stopped. This was clearly demonstrated during The Revolution of 1967-74. Admittedly, Mr. Makarezos didn't have as much of a hand in the economy as one would think given the incredible turn-around that the country experienced in those seven years, but it's also true that it was a very different time for the rest of the world as well. Other countries could afford to invest and their citizens could afford to be tourists. Iceland's situation sounds almost worse! Man I feel sorry for you guys! Well, I respect you for having different views from mine but for still being civil and for wishing me luck. I hope Italian repatriation is at least relatively easy because it will solve alot of problems if it is or at least make it more feasible for me to go to Greece as a worker.
To LeoGuardian: So only Americans in this country receive benefits, can call American cops or firefighters, use American transport and power or drive down the street? I must ask Spiros how he brought the Greek roads, cars, trains, cops and power companies with him because last time I checked, he wasn't an American citizen, only a legal immigrant and yet he uses most daily. I then need to go to the wellfare offices and ask why people who are not citizens can get benefits, unless, of course, their countries use America's name when handing out money to them. If all it takes is to use Greek products to make me one, hell, I drink Loutraki water, use Apivita and Olivia hair products and have many foods from Greece in my pantry and refridgerator.
I think the point was simply that people who trash the USA, and even renounce their citizenship still use the facilities that the USA have to offer, even if they hate the country. if they hate their country of birth, not criticise, but really hate, then they should leave.
I'm the first to say that my country right or wrong isn't a good philosophy. Personally I agree that one should criticise the government and look closely at what it does, not support it whatever happens.
However, I don't hate my country. my country hasn't done anything wrong by me to deserve that. there are lots of good points about my country, and it'll always be my homeland, where I was born and I wouldn't ever renounce it.'
thank you, swiss griff. I agree with you completely, and can respect the fact that you, unlike others here, have clearly done your hoomework so to speak. if more people followed in your footsteps instead of talking out of their ass, they'd probably get somewhere. so, great job, Loui...I admire you for everything you've put into this. I've always said that what you put in to something is exactly what you get out...and you're living proof of that!! *smiles*.
I meant homework, not hoomework. lol; sorry about the typo.
Well, lol, Switzerland definitely has its problems with Kosovo and ex Yugoslavia immigrants, sadly, but definitely not to the same extent as most other countries.
I spent a lot of the summer in Switzerland and, yes, it's great, though terrifyingly expensive (at lesat Zuerich is). My wife is Swiss so it's definitely not out of the question for us to move there, some day, though we are very happy North Carolinians and we hope to get U.S. residency/green cards after our studies here.
I think people who are unhappy with aspects of the U.S. should try and do whatever little they can do to change it. I have a lot of issues with things here, especially health insurance, Wal-Mart cashiers who need 10 minutes to scan a single product and are too busy chatting to do their job and the fact illegal miigrants make it extremely hard for those of us who come here, work pay taxes and fees as students or legal immigrants, to get a perminant residency status. I paid tens of thousands of dollars in taxes as an H1-B visa holder but was never entitled to social security, unemployment or any benefits whatsoever, and after working and contributing for 5 years it gets a bit frustrating.
Cheers
-B
the thing about switzerland is that it can afford the immigrants it has.
It can afford to support people when they are out of work and provide good services to the disabled.
It doesn't have the housing issues that larger countries like France and Germany have. and it certainly hasn't got the amount of cultural problems that plague other european nations like Belgium or Sweden.
Personally, I'd rather see the western world trying to make other countries better places to live rather than taking more and more immigrants. As much as I want good lives for everyone in the world, it shouldn't always come at the expense of other people.
Yes SwissGriff was right about what I meant.
Anyone who's read any of my board posts at all knows there's plenty I disagree with here, and I'm no jingoist. But on the one hand soundly renouncing one's citizenship and at the same time using all the benefits makes positively no sense to me at all.
I have no intention of renouncing my citizenship while I'm here. That makes no sense. Also, I was completely aware of what you meant. I was being sarcastic.
I don't see anything wrong with disliking the U.S. I don't feel that way myself, but if that is how you feel, Eleni, and you're not ashamed of it, then no matter. I also think it's okay to spiritually identify as Greek if you so choose and are so ashamed and disappointed with your birth country. There is a problem with not being up to speed on the country and culture you choose to identify with though. No, you can't choose where your born, but if you identify with a different culture, how can you not know essential facts and history about it? How can you criticize our culture and country based on facts and history you've taken time to learn about it, but not invest the same amount of time learning about your own to make a fully informed decision?
There is nothing in your post with which I can disagree. I am ashamed to not know as much about Hellenic history as I should and this is one thing that I will resolve, not merely discuss. I'm very good with modern politics and am reading up on The Constitution. But I think that it's important for me to really study our history after 1821, when we became an independent nation. It also certainly couldn't hurt to learn about before then, since the ancient times is what made us great and since it's also a good thing to learn about our time under Turkish rule. I know several things about the 20th century in Hellas but could always use more knowledge.
I'm bringing this back to the top because I think someone here will enjoy it. I actually reread all of the posts and they truly give alot of food for thought.
I read through all these posts, and one question kept coming to mind. You are dating a man who is Greek, so why is he here in the States? I don’t imagine he was forced to come here, so why did he move? There are more people moving to the U.S., both legally and illegally, than seem to be moving out, and there must be a reason for this movement. What does your boyfriend think about this country? Why did he move? What benefits does he find here that keep him from moving back?
He had his own personal reasons for moving here. While he likes it here, he also wants to move back to Greece one day. Right now, the Greek economy is a total mess, so that's why many people are moving to other countries. But many immigrants are also going there, not out of a sense of patriotism, and not to integrate into Hellenic society, but simply to work and take money, either to save and then to move back to their countries or to send home to their families. as a matter of fact, some islands have begged the government to stop the influx because it's harming them. Still, many are finding that the opportunities they once had aren't there and some are making things worse by protesting etc. In any case, I want to wait until the economy settles a bit before going to stay. It doesn't make sense for me to try and find a job right now, even if I do go for Italian and/or European citizenship, because I'd still be an immigrant and a blind one at that. Hopefully, I'll be able to learn a few trades here, some of which are actually traditional in certain Greek regions, and can find a job with those. If not, it's back to ESL. *sigh* But whatever works.
Got booted out the first time I posted so I'll keep it short. Tiff you're mistaken others dislike us because we "force" our culture on others. How do we do that? I spent time in an Arab majority nation, and we actually got moved to the head of the line in customs with my American passport. Also on the indigenous being the only ones who can call themselves American. Their origin is thought to be south Asia with a migration thousands of years ago from the Bering strait. They have hair & features like Mongoloid Asians. Also the question of if other groups, like Spanish speakers, also get accommodation in their native language. They do, and it's wrong. I think new arrivals here should be like the Swiss, learning English not out of love and tolerance but necessity. If you need a voter ballot in Chinese...actually provided...you shouldn't be a citizen as citizenship test requires passing English language, thus you shouldn't have the right to vote. Some lose second language as a result of dementia. If you have Alzheimers or some other form of dementia, you shouldn't be picking the leader of the free world.
Thanks for agreeing with me on learning English. Even if the Native Americans originally came from South Asia, we're talking thousands of years ago. By that logic, everyone is African, since humans were supposed to have started out there. I'm not sure why you got to the front of the line, other than it's probably better to act respectful towards American in foreign countries, either because you really feel that way or because they might sue you. Perhaps, they were also trying to be nice and make themselves look good because Americans have been giving Muslims so much grief over the last few years.
What sort of grief have Americans been giving Muslims? In spite of the fact that 15 out of the 19 September 11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia, we're still allowing recipients of that nation's King Abdullah scholarship program in our universities. Muslims have been part of our society since Syrians & Lebanese came in the 19th Centuries. We still allow diversity in the military, in spite of the freak who assassinated his fellow soldiers at Fort Hood, and there are employers who don't ban hijab. Check out a book on religious diversity in the states. A couple of 'em will tell you Muslims here are more likely to be earning the same amount or more than their non Muslim neighbors & more likely to be content with their lives than their counterparts in some European nations.
I'm afraid I'm not seeing the grief & aggravation. IMO part of the reason Muslim majority countries are so backwards compared to the rest of the industrialized world is insulating themselves from other faiths & cultures rather than learning from 'em & adopting what works. For example I have heard my share of those from Arab nations insult blacks & Asians. How about instead adopting subSaharan blacks attitudes about formal education, where some kids even bring supplies to share with friends so they can learn too? By contrast some Arab parents won't even allow their kids to learn French as "the Qu'ran was revealed in Arabic." Same with the Asians, how about instead learning from their emphasis on formal education & work ethic? You don't hear about too many unassimilated Vietnamese or impoverished Pacific Rim nations. Same with some of their attitudes towards Americans. How about opening these societies up to disciplines other than religion & see if that helps 'em compete with the west? How about learning to coexist with other faiths? Just my two cents for the day...
The "grief" isn't imposed officially. It comes from individuals , of which I know several. who are simply intollerant towards Muslims, blame them for everything and seem to think that every Muslim is a terrorist. These types of attitudes are unhealthy at best and downright harmful at worst. So while some companies, the military and other official places accept them, the general public, or at least much of it, seems to be pouring their hatred, indifference or intolerance onto them which I think is wrong. Am I saying that real terrorists should be treated kindly and forgiven? Absolutely not. But not everyone who follows the Islamic faith should be seen as one either.
While I'm a strong advocate of preserving cultural and national identity, I do agree that everyone has a bit to learn from everyone else. The trick is to find the balance between closemindedness and an overemphasis on eclecticism which erodes the native culture and makes people ashamed and/or disinterested in it in favour of diversity..